Different Old Testament Catholic Books?

Q: I was talking with some Catholic relatives and they said the origional bible included the Catholic books and it wasn't until the reformation that they were eliminated. Do you know why Martin Luther eliminated them? I understand they contain some talk about purgatory and praying to the saints.

A: Your relatives did not provide a complete picture. The books you are mentioned are called Deuterocanonical books and have never been part of the Hebrew Bible, which is our Old Testament. Jesus affirmed the Hebrew Bible as we know it (which is in our non-Catholic Bibles – NIV, ESV, KJV, etc.). The Deuterocanonical books have been included for years in many of the Christian lists of Old Testament books, so in that your relatives are correct. There were debates in the early Church about whether they should be read in the churches and be classified as canonical texts. The word Deuterocanonical comes from the Greek meaning 'belonging to the second canon' and indicates doubt about the inclusion of these books in the canon (canon means standard). They have always been considered as secondary, even by Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians (both of whom still include them in their Old Testament). These books are also sometimes referred to as “Apocrypha.” There was a Greek version of the Old Testament (called the Septuagint), which contained some of these books at the time of Jesus. Since the early church was primarily Greek speaking, it is probable that they got their Old Testament from that source rather than the Hebrew Bible, which explains why early Catholic Bibles included them, as well.

The exclusion was not something Martin Luther did. The newer Bibles which were being printed in the common languages were being translated from the original languages of the Hebrew Bible and the Greek Bible, with a separate section including those other books (called Apocrypha). In fact it was the opposite – it was at the Council of Trent (1545) that the Catholics confirmed the Deuterocanonical books in their Bible, as a reaction against Luther's placement of these books in the Apocrypha of his edition. The Catholics do use these books to validate both purgatory and prayer to the saints (especially 2 Maccabees 12:43-45).

Here is a list of those books:

• Tobit
• Judith
• Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4-16:24[14])
• Wisdom
• Sirach, also called Ben Sira or Ecclesiasticus
• Baruch, including the Letter of Jeremiah (Additions to Jeremiah in the Septuagint[15])
• Additions to Daniel:
•  Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24-90)
•  Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13, Septuagint prologue)
•  Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14, Septuagint epilogue)
• 1 Maccabees
• 2 Maccabees

By the way, some of these books are interesting to read. The two Maccabees books fill in some history between the last book of the Old Testament and the Gospels. However, if you are a Bible reader you will note that as you read them there is not the same sense of the Spirit at work in them.

Was Paul being contradictory w/re to tongues in 1 Corinthians 14?

Q: Ken said...
In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul says that tongues are a sign "not for believers but for unbelievers" (v. 22), but that an unbeliever who comes to church and hears tongues will say the people in that church are out of their minds (v. 23).

Paul also says that prophecy "is for believers, not for unbelievers" (v. 22), but if an unbeliever comes to church and hears prophecy, he will "be convinced...that he is a sinner" and will "fall down and worship God" (v. 25).

Can you help me understand these conflicting statements?

A: Remember that this is a corrective message from Paul. Paul is saying that their expression of tongues when they gather is disorderly and becomes distracting to the new believer.

In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul says that tongues are a sign "not for believers but for unbelievers" (v. 22), but that an unbeliever who comes to church and hears tongues will say the people in that church are out of their minds (v. 23).

This (and the previous verse which references Isaiah 28:11) is a reminder that those who hear things they do not understand are under judgment – and though the Corinthians themselves are operating within what is a genuine gift which might edify them personally, when they do so collectively, they are not edifying one another and they are certainly not edifying the non-believer. Used in such a way, it is like the tongue of the Babylonians – foreign to those who were taken into captivity.

Paul also says that prophecy "is for believers, not for unbelievers" (v. 22), but if an unbeliever comes to church and hears prophecy, he will "be convinced...that he is a sinner" and will "fall down and worship God" (v. 25).

The church is built up by the gift of prophecy (forth-speaking), which includes, by the way, the proclamation of the word in confrontation. So, while prophecy is given to the church for the building up of the saints in the Word, it can also bring conviction to the non-believer who hears and is convicted.

Why do some of God's people suffer?

Q: Why do some of God’s people struggle with cancer or other diseases? I know he is a loving God, but it just doesn’t seem right.

A: It is true that Christians get sick just like anyone else. And you are right that God is very loving. But as to it not seeming right…I’m not so sure how to answer that. Did God intend for there to be disease and death in the world? No. Sickness and death entered the creation through sin (Genesis 3) and no one is exempt. But God set in motion a plan of redemption that culminated in Jesus’ death on the cross for our sins. He knows what it means to suffer, and to die a horrible excruciating death. He can sympathize with us and He doesn’t leave us or forsake us (Hebrews 13:5) no matter how difficult things get.

If Christians didn’t go through suffering like everyone else, then how would they be able to minister comfort and encouragement to those who do suffer? It is because we go through tough times and are comforted by the Lord that we are able to comfort others. As it is written,

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. 5 For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. 6 If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer. 7 Our hope for you is unshaken, for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort." (2 Cor. 1:3-7 ESV)


We are also not without hope in our sickness, for Jesus Christ is our healer! If you read the gospels, you will see Jesus moved by compassion for the sick and healing everyone who came to him… and He never changes (Hebrews 13:8)! Even if we are not physically healed right now, as Christians we still have nothing to fear as we pass through the thin veil of death into eternity with the Lord into a new creation…free of sickness and death! It is true that we may face short-term suffering and pain in this life. But remember that we are not alone, nor are we without hope…in this life and in the next!

How can they say it was three days?

Q: In Matthew 12, Jesus references the story of Jonah and his 3-day stay inside the fish, and then says that like Jonah, "the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." The idea that Jesus rose "three days later" is pervasive in Christian lore. But in all the stories of the crucifixion and resurrection, it appears Jesus died on a Friday afternoon, and rose on a Sunday morning -- which is two nights. What am I missing?

A: This is a good question and the answer has to do with the method used for keeping track of time that was in use in Israel at the time of Christ. If any part of the day was experienced then it counted. Was Jesus in the grave for a full 72 hours? No. They counted days from sunset to sunset So Jesus was dead part of Friday, all of Saturday, and part of Sunday… but it is referred to as three days because parts of three different days were involved. Similarly, you could accurately say that you have lived in two different centuries and yet still be too young to have a driver’s license! Hope that helps!

Church reporting

Q: Do you have a public record of how much our church gives to missions?

A: We have an annual congregational meeting scheduled for the first Wednesday in May. Come to that mid-week service and you'll receive a host of information about ministry and expenditures, including missions. Keep an eye on the web site and bulletin for details.

Was the Cross Plan B?

Q: 1 Corinthians 2:8 puzzles me. Was Paul saying that if things had turned out differently, Jesus would not have been crucified? The crucifixion of Jesus was a fulfillment of prophesy and the essential act of our salvation. So, what is the significance of 1 Corinthians 2:8?

Note: for the sake of clarity, the question above was summarized from a longer submission that included personal testimony and reflection.

A: The verse asked about appears in bold in the following passage from 1 Corinthians:

"We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written:

"No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him—but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God." I Corinthians 2:6-10

The key to understanding this passage is Paul's confidence that "God has revealed it to us by His Spirit." Paul is contrasting the unsearchable wisdom of God, which can only be known as the Holy Spirit reveals it, with "the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age." He returns in 2:8 to a theme that he initiates in 1:17-31, which ends with a quote from Jeremiah, "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." The power of the Cross, and for that matter the entire Gospel, stands in stark opposition to "eloquent wisdom."

What Paul writes in verse 2:8 is meant to highlight this contrast. He sets up a hypothetical situation that underscores the futility of trying to understand God's wisdom "from below", from a human-centered theology as it were. Paul groups the wisdom that predominates his particular age, grounded in Hellenistic culture, with those that rule in that age. They are dominated by this "wisdom"—believing all that is good, true, and beautiful is available to them through their own efforts.

Paul is pointing out, quite simply, that they are deluded. "If" is the operative word here: if they had understood who Jesus was, they would not have crucified Him. But they didn't, nor could they because they found their own brand of wisdom so much more attractive than the plain declaration of God's Word concerning His Son.

The Corinthians were being seduced by the same love of worldly wisdom. Imagine the corrective power of those lines as they were read in the Corinthian church. Imagine the congregation hearing echoes of their own deception in the sinful autonomy of the "rulers of this age" who nailed the Lord of Glory to a cross.

Paul is not contemplating a different plan in 2:8. There was always only one way, and that is the path Jesus willingly took.

A woman created before Eve?

Q: Was there another person before Eve? My pastor says there was another person before Eve, God did not like her and destroyed her. If so can you tell me more about her! Thank You.

A: The simple answer is no. There was no pre-Eve woman. This has never been a belief held by traditional, orthodox Christianity. The Bible tells the simple story of Adam as the first man and Eve as the first woman. There is a mythical story of a female night demon named Lilith from Jewish folklore. It was developed during the middle ages into the tale of a woman who was first married to Adam. It is a story that is not based in anything biblical and it can be disregarded.